Get Schooled on Midstream
0:00 Welcome back to another episode of Energy 101. I'm Sydney. We are here with Jules. I'm back. Our fashion expert is back. Leaving for Arizona this weekend, but we caught her before she heads out.
0:13 Um, today we are here with Vicki Nutt from Crux. Hi. Vicki is missing us from San Francisco. She was here for some meetings. So we snagged her for an episode. So I know on one episode we've
0:25 already talked about in terms of oil and gas, the difference between upstream, midstream and downstream, Vicki, you work in midstream. And that is what we're going to talk about today. So, um,
0:34 I think to kick us off, let's talk about Crux and how you got into the industry. Yeah. So got in because I worked in pulp and paper and just really liked control systems. And, um, graduating in,
0:46 I guess graduating like 2011 and it wasn't exactly a hot time for pulp and paper. Everybody was like, Oh, yay, plastic is recyclable, which we all know is a little more complex than that.
0:55 Nowadays, paper is actually very sustainable resource. Anyway, so at the time, I was like, okay, I'm going to oil and gas. Like that seems to be like the best thing to do. So I went into, I
1:04 started working for the company that has the Keystone pipeline. So I trained as a control arm operator there. Commission valves in the field. So big 24 inch valves, like the sides of our heads are
1:14 bigger. And then, yeah, I
1:17 came to understand that the way that we operate pipelines, which is effectively midstream is through procedures, checklists and rules of thumb in a central control room with a person, think of like
1:27 a pilot in a cockpit. Right. And they're actually operating it. And it's like, okay, well, this person is doing this and sure it's digital as in their pushing buttons, like on their phone, but
1:34 it's not on the phone. It's on a big screen. But like they're pushing these buttons, but they still have to use paper procedures to do it, right? Like they're not, there's no automated smartness
1:42 or you can't tell Alexa to turn on the lights. Right. It doesn't work that way. So we set out to start automating that for control arm operators because control Roberta Fatigue is the leading cause
1:52 of safety and environmental incidents. in the industry - Wow - Yeah, and so people don't know that. So it's like, okay, well, if we can mitigate their workload, make their lives easier, we can
2:00 really make a big impact on top of that. As we divest from oil and gas over time, it's going to take time. We need to make our existing assets as efficient as possible, also from an energy
2:11 transition standpoint and just from the right thing to do. And so the more throughput you can get through existing assets, the better. Automating your control room, operators workload actually
2:19 straight up increases utilization of your midstream pipeline assets So more revenue and more throughput - More revenue, that's the magic word - Not profit actually, we love that word - We love
2:29 profit better - Yeah, even better. So yeah, so I hope that was a not too technical deep dive. I would love to, like, is there any of that that I should elaborate on for the folks who would like
2:37 to learn more about like what all those things mean - So when you say like a control room operator, are you
2:45 like on like a rig site, like what? So it's in like an actual central control room So like, you know, for example, one of the biggest pipeline companies in Canada, they are central control room
2:56 that operates, I believe, hundreds of thousands of kilometers or miles of pipeline. They have a control room in Edmonton and they're operating all of those pipelines from one place in Edmonton.
3:06 And so when they send a command on that screen, it will operate of Alvin, Texas. So really, really cool. So you can think of it a little bit too, like air traffic control, but with actual
3:16 control. Right? Right. So that's kind of a neat thing. And there's people that work in shifts So they're there 24 hours a day, seven days a week, making sure these assets are running to keep our
3:25 economy going, essentially. Right. Right. Yeah. And so I know, let's go back the basics, midstream. Yeah. Where does that fall? Yes. In the pipeline. I guess you should say. And the
3:38 supply chain. And the supply chain. Yeah. Yeah. So upstream is where you're like, you've got all your rigs and your drilling and your pumping oil with all your pump checks and stuff. And then it
3:47 connects into gathering pipeline systems, which are mid-stream, which then goes into gas. for separation of your gas and your oil midstream, then goes into transmission pipelines, midstream,
3:59 which then ends up in like terminals that will end up in refineries or at shipping places and things like that, and that's your downstream. And then downstream would also include like your
4:08 petrochemicals to make the plastics and things. So it's like all the stuff in between as aptly called midstream. It's everything in between upstream and downstream - It's midstream, it's midstream.
4:18 So if you're not upstream and you're not downstream, you're midstream, there's no other option - Exactly - Love it - Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about, I loved what you said about control
4:30 operators from a safety perspective, their fatigue is causing the most issues - Yeah, problems - Like almost every major leak that's happened on an oil pipeline was control on operator error - Oh,
4:42 yeah - Could you imagine being that person - Is it like, it's like human error - Human error - Yeah, so like fatigue, like fatigue is essentially like the way that it's defined by PHIMSA like the
4:51 regulator in the US.
4:59 is it's defined by long periods of inactivity, followed by very short bursts of extreme activity, and it gets very exhausting on the brain. You guys can imagine that when you have something you
5:02 really need to get done, and you're hyper-focused for an hour, then you need a nap. Or you start zoning out, you can't focus on it anymore. So that fatigue directly leads to human error. So
5:15 anything that we can do to reduce their workload or take away the human execution of these things will increase the safety - So is that where essentially robots are coming in - Yeah, so we actually
5:27 call our product PipeBot -
5:29 PipeBot. Isn't it cute - That is cute, that sounds really cute - I know. And it's very like a sticky name, 'cause we have customers who didn't even know our actual company name. They're just like,
5:39 Oh, you guys are PipeBot. I'm like, Sure - Yes - Yeah. like they're like virtual robots, not like real robots, right? There's not like a humanoid robot pushing buttons at the console. Like
5:51 that's not what's happening. But it's essentially like a software program that uses control systems to predict what the set points, you know, the execution of button pushing should be and does it
6:02 on their behalf. And yes, we call it pipe bot. Pipe bot. Yeah. So what's a typical shift like for someone, a human working in the control or like where that fatigue, like where does that come
6:15 into play? Yeah. What are those conditions like I should say? Yeah, conditions are good. And like, so yeah, so it's like, you come in, you get in at 6am, usually shift starts at like 630 or
6:25 seven. Again, depends on the company. So you come in, you know, you do shift handoff with whoever was working that specific console before you. And the console would be like, it's like your
6:34 desk with your like nine screens, right? Like like NASA and your person is sitting there. So you're switching off with them, or more to like, okay, what were the things that happened? What's
6:47 your logs, right? Like let me see your logs. What did you log for activity last night? What are your pump orders? So it's like, okay, so what batches need to be shipped? What locations from
6:56 oil scheduling based from the trading teams? And then like, okay, what's happening right now on the screens? So you do that handoff and then you sit. And so say you're operating like a big
7:05 mainline pipeline. So let's say it's a Keystone line since I know it very well. You know, you're having to deliver batches of product, which are like batches of crude oil and there'd be the cavies
7:15 and lights and like sours and sweets. And they come in like 100, 000 barrel batches. So you're essentially sitting there managing this like giant garden hose as it pushes peanut butter followed by
7:29 oil, followed by water. And you have to manage all of the pump stations to manage how those things move throughout the line all day long. So like, so if you think of it, I've like, if peanut
7:41 butter's going through the line,
8:41 how can we set them up for success and not put them in those positions - Well, as you were going through all of that, the only thing you could think of is that should be automated. Like why is all
8:49 of those manual processes being done by one person who's responsible for manually doing all of it, it just seems like a lot. It's a lot - Yeah. So I do equate it to think back in the day when
9:01 pilots didn't have autopilot software and they're just hanging on for like
9:07 12 hours straight. It's like that - It's a little terrifying for anyone on the plane - Yeah - You wouldn't want to get into plane - No - With a pilot without flying without autopilot software.
9:17 That's a crazy town - What if they fall asleep? What if they sneeze and like something happens - Exactly - So I know like there's a lot of talk around just like, oh, robots are going to take over
9:28 the workforce. Is that a big thing like what you guys are doing with pipe bot, like are people freaking out? Like, oh my gosh, you'll laugh at this one when we talk to like. control room
9:41 operators, they're like, this is awesome, we need this. Because they know their jobs, like you need a person there to operate this stuff. They're just like, how can we make it easier? And
9:50 they're like, a lot of them are actually millennials. So like, it's like, can my phone can do this? And Alexa can do this. Why can't this piece of equipment that I work at every day do this?
10:00 But it's funny when you talk to a lot of engineers in the oil and gas companies, the industry companies, the engineers are like, they'll say that, like the control room operators are gonna hate it.
10:08 And I'm like, when's the last time you talk to a control room operator, they do not hate this.
10:13 So yeah, so there's, it's actually like, I can see where people would assume that. But I think in this specific case, like the workload is so much and it's such high stakes that it's not the case
10:23 - Right, it's just making it more efficient - Yeah. And like, it's not gonna get rid of anyone's job - Right, right - It's just making it easier. We still need pilots and planes - Exactly - I was
10:30 just gonna say, what's the line in the sand for that, how far it goes to the point where you do still need a human? I think it's a safety thing, right? Like if it's something that's critical,
10:43 like a plane, like you don't wanna get in the plane without the software, but you don't wanna get in the plane without the pilot. And I think like energy infrastructure is so critical, like
10:51 removing explosive things. And it is a safety issue like for human lives if it's not done correctly. So I think you need both, right? Like it's like you need the backup - Right, 'cause in my mind
11:01 on a plane, autopilot goes out. You got to work with pilot, right - Yeah - For some reason, pipe bot is down I mean, as we know, energy infrastructure could be a power outage, could be, God
11:11 knows what, you still need someone there that knows what's going on - Knows what's going on - Knows what's going on, can manually jump in and get the rest of it done - Exactly. So like I think of
11:20 it the same way - Yeah, hope that answers that question - Yeah -
11:25 That's awesome - Anything else - Not so much on the mid-stream front. What else do you wanna, anything else you guys are doing that you wanna chitchat on? We can like intro a question to it - Okay,
11:35 yeah For people, this is maybe getting a little political, but like. Highplines, people are very against them as someone that doesn't know a whole lot about it, like why - I think it's like,
11:49 part of the reason you guys started this podcast is the industry just has such a bad rap because nobody's ever focused on PR in the industry, right? And so I think it's just like, pipelines just,
12:03 they're ugly, right? But what people don't know is under US soils, 24 million miles of pipeline, like the entire economy runs off of this. And like, you can't just shut it all off - Yeah, just
12:14 shut it, what are we gonna do - Yeah, exactly, what are we gonna do? And so I think it's like, I think it's a lot of just like, bad press over the years, but if you actually look at like, you
12:23 know, the whatever unit equivalent would make sense, like a pipeline is the safest, most cost effective, energy efficient way to move energy. I guess people just don't think. of moving oil as
12:36 energy. Maybe they just think of electricity as moving energy, but the oil makes the electricity in a lot of cases. So, right. Right, yeah. I was gonna ask that because when, before we started
12:47 the podcast, way back when kind of, it led to the idea of starting it, we had a little energy when I went session with Colin, and he mentioned the pipeline and things, and I said, and I brought
12:59 up Jules Point, I kind of said, this seems way safer than the alternative, so why do people dislike them so much? 'Cause the alternative of moving that oil is what? Like, tankers, trains.
13:10 Change trains, which can crash, you know, train. Trains are, like, trains, I think there's like, I haven't seen the numbers, but like, I know that like, train explosions are way more common.
13:21 That's the pipeline. Especially oil pipeline, 'cause like, an oil pipeline is a leak, yes, and that's horrific and it should never happen, but it doesn't, like an oil pipeline doesn't explode.
13:30 Right. Yeah, it's pipeline to do, and that has happened But oil pipelines don't explode.
13:35 train cars will. Absolutely. And those are the things that aren't being talked about. I remember, I guess I think it was with the Keystone Pipeline and that's all the to Jules' point getting
13:45 political. That's a big hot topic for a lot of elections and totally. I feel like you never hear the quote unquote upside to the pipeline and why it's still better than the alternatives. Yeah.
13:59 Yeah. And I think it's like, I think even the positioning around some of the upside that the companies themselves try to try to position. They're not winning hearts and minds. They're just saying,
14:09 it'll create jobs. But that doesn't win hearts and minds. Right. And so how do you actually use some actual sales tactics and marketing tactics and convince people with emotion as opposed to logic
14:24 because that's not working. Right And I think so many times with things like oil and energy and, you know, just other things, it's always kind of the lesser of two. to evil, so someone
14:35 convincing them that it's better than the alternatives. It's not a perfect solution, but it is the best solution for what we've got. And that's it at the end of the day - For right now - For right
14:47 now, that's what we're working with - Yeah, and also it's like that philosophy that incremental changes can add up to massive changes, right - Right - There is no silver bullet for any of this, so
14:57 we have to stop pretending that there is. And so like, yeah, using a pipeline now rather than rail is better Does that mean that that's what we want to do forever? No. But like for now, like
15:07 that's fantastic. And then once we have that established, then what else can we do - Yeah, and I think we keep evolving - Yeah - A lot of our time - Exactly, and I think that's what a lot of
15:15 people who are against oil and gas in their traditional sense are very much looking for a solution - That doesn't exist - That doesn't exist - That doesn't exist right now. And they're looking for
15:27 something to happen tomorrow. Like we were talking before we hit record, so we'll backtrack a little bit. about how there are some people that think that we can just stop using oil and gas right
15:39 now, tomorrow. We're just gonna stop and the world's just gonna keep moving - Moving - Moving - Yeah - And we'll just deal with the fallout and it's like, yeah, I don't think anyone understands
15:50 what they'd even be signing up for - Absolutely not - Right. There's no way - It would be chaos - No, yeah - I don't even want to imagine a world without it - Yeah, so - Like even fashion, right?
16:01 Like fashion doesn't exist without it - Right, right - Exactly - Which most people in the fashion industry probably don't realize - Exactly - Yeah, I mean, that's definitely our biggest, one of
16:10 our biggest goals at DW. is providing a platform for companies to be able to tell their story better - Mm-hmm - So, and also where we started this podcast, so - Yeah, yeah - Yeah. I like the
16:21 AirPods too, 'cause I need absolutely, I need a new pair for Christmas. I was just telling my family about it and, the plastic, yep.
16:30 So many things, everything in this room, this, the phone, all of this equipment. All the equipment. Yeah, and not just what the material itself, but the energy required to manufacture the
16:40 material. That I've forgotten as well. It does get brought, and I feel like a lot of electric vehicle owners forget that. Yeah. That so many charging stations that they're not solar are plugged
16:51 into traditional. Yeah, like your - All electric outlets. And your, and which is probably, depending on the geolocation is supplied by your gas, cogent plant, which is natural gas, which is
17:03 coming from a pipeline. Right. Right. And so it's all - It's all connected. It's all connected. Yeah. And then the electrification, the grid needs to be expanded, and that's fantastic. But
17:11 another thing that people forget too is the line losses in transmission lines. So if you were - and I don't know the math behind this, and I'd have to look it up, but if you're a long haul
17:22 transporting electricity, your actual losses might be such that it doesn't make any sense to move that much electricity via. like long haul lines and you might actually want, it might be more
17:32 energy efficient to have a gas power plant closer to those locations and a gas pipeline to it, right? Like people don't think about that - Yeah - Yeah. So, and then that's midstream - And that's
17:43 also midstream -
17:45 Back to why we're here - Back to midstream - I love it - Back to midstream. We love midstream. It's great, but yeah, like, and then you gas up at your 76 gas station that came from midstream -
17:56 Right - Mm-hmm - Which also probably is an electric charging station, as it should - It probably does. I feel like they're getting in, we're actually recording another episode tomorrow with
18:08 plinking on the name - We're gonna, let me look, we'll edit it in - Yeah - I don't wanna say it. It's a, it's an app or a nuke, we don't know - Yes, it is him - I'm gonna make sure I pronounce
18:18 it here - But I pronounce it here - Not exactly, which is - Electric charging station - Yeah - Yeah - Very cool - Yes - And then the thing, I was just imagining, you know, we're like, oh, we
18:25 didn't have our phones like.
18:29 Or clothes either, like just imagine a world where we didn't have clothes or phones - Yeah, can everyone just walk in your engine - Yeah, that's true - Yeah, so tomorrow we're recording another
18:36 energy one-on-one episode with Pandia Charging. And their kind of mission is to get more charging stations around, we just had our few conference in Edo and so he emailed after and he was like, Hey,
18:46 do you guys know who I can reach out to in the Edo area that can kind of be in charge of getting more electric charging stations out there - Fine - So that's kind of his mission in life and it's
18:57 accessibility and I liked what you said about a little bit goes a long way and it's the small changes that will eventually get us to where most of the world wants to be - Exactly, so a few more
19:11 charging stations makes a difference. 'Cause then it will start changing such that, okay, well we maybe do need to beef up the grid in this area, but then there's time to do it and it can be done
19:22 incrementally and it can actually be. done. Right. Exactly. Most importantly, it can actually get done. Yes, exactly. And like, yeah, and like, you know, then when you guys had the freeze,
19:31 right? Like that's, yeah, I was just thinking about that because it was wild. It's, you know, almost December, January, February, that's when it happened. Yeah. So let's hope that, yeah,
19:42 that does not happen again. That does not happen again. Right. So yeah, so I think like that's probably it for midstream. So hopefully that like explained enough with enough analogies that people
19:52 could like follow, I think, what what midstream is, but another way to think of it too is like plumbing of the world. Yeah. Right. Because people don't really realize it, but like, you know,
20:04 there's sewer systems in cities where there's also like gas and oil systems, right in cities and the world. Right. So it's got to come from somewhere. Yeah. Or else I like to think of it
20:12 sometimes like if you look at the world as like, as I'm like veins and arteries, that's another thing. Right. Like it's just kind of making it this big ecosystem, but it's. some people will not
20:22 like that I use that word ecosystem - But it still is how it is - Right - To that exact point, could you imagine just overnight flipping a sweatshirt and shutting it all off - Yeah, it's like, well,
20:31 we all just - And the chaos ensues - Chaos ensues, exactly. Could be an interesting plot for like a move - I was just thinking that like a Netflix movie - Yeah, like new ideas - Sponsored by,
20:44 produced by digital wall cutters - Yes - What happens - Documentary style, like full-on - Yes, what happens if we turn off everything - That's a good idea - That would be fun - Nobody steal it -
20:55 Actually trademarked it, copyright it right now - Hey, you guys on this content, so yes - Can we help it - You heard it here first - Here, here, here first - So we're gonna move into rapid fire -
21:06 Okay, ready - Ready - Ready - All right, what's the number one misconception about the energy industry - Ooh. I think what I would think that the number one misconception is like folks just
21:19 assuming that all oil and gas profit-sucking devils. Not understanding that the market actually sets the prices and when they're making good profits, it has nothing to do with them. It just has to
21:29 do with supply and demand of commodities. I love that answer. Economics 101. Economics 101. Exxon's not sucking profits out of people out of consumers. That's not all what's happening. And then
21:42 you could look at a company like Apple could bring their prices down quite a bit, but they don't.
21:48 Absolutely, they keep going up. They keep going up and they actually have price control, whereas oil and gas companies do not have price control. That's probably the biggest misconception.
21:59 Number two, why should I care about the energy industry?
22:04 I think we covered that a lot today. And that has to do with everything you're wearing, everything you're doing requires energy. Also, too, I love doing the thought exercise of Like people in
22:19 developing nations, like who are we to say in like first world countries that they can't have access to their own like drilling, oil and gas to accelerate their own economies? Like who the hell are
22:28 we to say that? Right? So that's another one that kind of tugs on my heartstrings a little bit of like, yeah, why should someone be burning coal in their kitchen when they could have electricity
22:38 powered by like a natural gas station, a natural gas generating station to like help them live better and improve their quality of life? Like it's just who are we to say that they can't have that?
22:49 Exactly. We took a trip to Costa Rica as a team in May and there's, it's still very underdeveloped in a lot of the rural kind of jungle areas. And as we were driving around and hiking and doing all
23:00 those things, it was interesting, I think to us as a team, just it kind of hit me. Yeah, it did. Yeah. And how many people still do not have access to clean, reliable energy. Clean, reliable
23:12 energy in the way that we think about it here Yeah, because it is such a - of our everyday lives - Exactly, and so yeah, so then who are we to say that other nations can't have that, right? Like,
23:22 that's not cool - It's not cool at all - I wouldn't like that if I was living there - No, like, but then you like villainize those countries for being like all pro-oiling gas, but it's like, they
23:33 want it. They see what we have and it makes sense - It does, it does - Last one, what's your most embarrassing story in your career? It's our favorite question - My most embarrassing story in my
23:45 career.
23:49 The one that's probably was just like the most mortifying where I like came out of it like just shaking was we got into like a Techstars program in Norway and we went to Norway and you know, it's
24:02 like just me and my co-founder and there's this bunch of engineers at this like oil and gas company. And I had to go in and like pitched them essentially and they were so, and like we were just so
24:13 early as a company. And the way that the room was even architected was like, they were in like bleachers above me. And I had to sit down below and I was just like by myself. And they were just
24:22 grilling on like, you know, all the aspects of like same misconceptions. But at the time I was like so much more, not used to talking about all the time. So I didn't have the confidence. And
24:32 like, essentially it was like a full hour of just getting punched in the face - Oh my gosh - Oh my gosh - Yeah. And I just like, I came out of it just like shaking And like just right in the face
24:43 and like, that was mortifying, right - Oh, yeah - So that's probably - Yeah, you're probably just like, when is this gonna be over - Yeah. And just like, are they done yet? Are they done yet?
24:52 Like I'm tired of hearing them stupid. I know I'm stupid. I know this is dumb. I know we should never do this. Right? Like, gosh - The fact that they were in bleachers makes it so much worse -
25:01 Made it so much worse - So much worse - We were at like a round table like this. I think I would have been able to like, hold my own in a hand - Right - But the fact that they were in bleachers and
25:08 just like, it was such an interesting lesson like the dynamics of a space and how that can like. really change how you feel about things. So I don't think it was like a glorious, like this is
25:17 super embarrassing, but like looking back on it, I found it kind of funny. They was like looking back, I would just stood up. Right. Right. I'm like, bring it. Yeah, let's go. Let's go.
25:26 But at the time I was like, I'm so scared. I have this idea and I don't know what to do.
25:32 So
25:34 that's why you help me. Help me. I know I'm really stupid - Oh my God, I hate that - Yeah. But I think, you know, it's like, yeah, it was super embarrassing at the time it's super embarrassing
25:43 looking at it now. 'Cause it's like, okay, I could have done a lot to mitigate those feelings, but whatever, you live and learn - How long was that? Oh, that was probably three and a half years
25:52 ago, maybe four years ago - Yeah. Oh, 'cause I guess we didn't really talk about how long access has been. Yeah, we have existed for five years - On that - But I chavied out the first two years
26:05 real hard because when I started the company with my co-founder, I had never heard of startups. I'd never heard of venture capital. I'd never heard of Silicon Valley. I'd never heard of a sales
26:14 pipeline or procurement. So it was like the learning curve is like the steepest thing of all time. And I was like not getting paid. And so it was like two years of just sheer terror of assuming
26:24 this thing was going nowhere -
26:27 And then we got into an accelerator program which completely changed the game for us - Yeah, and then it was like, okay, now this is a thing. There's just a lot of things that I don't know but
26:36 like this is something that's intriguing - But you can learn it - Yeah, I can learn it - I can learn it - Yes - I'm assuming - Yes - And sitting and getting absolutely berated by a bunch of engineers
26:44 in a bleacher like helped me build the confidence to be able to do it today - Yeah, look where you are today - What does that actually make you stronger - Almost killed me though. I thought I was
26:52 gonna fall in - You are. That one was like, full on nausea - So that sounds terrifying - I'm very sorry - I know. You two, I'm just imagining myself in that position. I probably would have
27:05 vomited Darian - Or I would have never cried - Yeah, or I might have said it on your stick - I might have did both - I went to the bathroom and cried - I did - After - Like it was like, I went and I
27:13 just bald - Like, do there's something worse? Like when you know your face is so red, and it's just like, and you can try and calm yourself down, but it's like this is never gonna end, and they
27:22 can totally tell that my face is so red - Yep, and they're probably all feeling, they're like, is she gonna cry? Is she gonna cry? Is she gonna cry - Yeah, and they're like, they're like, told
27:30 you so, told you so. This is dumb - Like that's like, oh my
27:34 gosh. So I hope the cringe has came out, like everyone's cringing. So I'm not most embarrassing them. I'm amazed with like cringe-worthy. Most cringing-worthy them - Oh yeah. I think a lot of
27:44 them have been pretty cringe-worthy too - Pretty cringe-worthy, hi, cringe-worthy? Like, you know, it depends on your humor type, but it's typically fine - Yeah, like second
27:53 hint of bearish-ment, Yeah, I was in my feeling right now -
27:58 Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I know you're heading back to San Francisco tomorrow - Yeah, tomorrow afternoon, after meeting with a customer that we love - Cool - Okay - Okay -
28:08 Thanks for stopping by and - Yeah, thanks for having me - Tune in next time for another episode. Hit subscribe. Anyone wants to sponsor this podcast or any of our podcasts - Let us know - We'll
28:20 catch you next time - Bye - Bye
