Energy 101: We Ask The Dumb Questions So You Don't Have To

0:00 Welcome back to another episode of Energy 101. We know that it's been a while. We apologize. Sorry, I've been busy. If you watched our webinar with Michael Minnan-Robinson a couple of months ago

0:11 with Chuck, you recognize these two lovely ladies. Lauren and Ashley are two favorite energy lawyers. They are here to school us on everything energy law, energy trial, and why it's important to

0:25 just kind of be in the know. No one likes to get sued No one likes to get called to be a part of a trial. So I'm excited to kind of learn how we could protect ourselves and what all that, what all

0:36 goes into being a part of a trial. I'm excited too, because this isn't a topic that you hear about every day. No. Something that you're just like, oh, yeah. All of this about an energy trial.

0:48 So I'm excited to dive in and get all the fun tidbits from y'all. And we try to make it fun. Yeah. We think that's why. Obviously, this is what we do for a living Yeah.

0:60 Are not the trials that we're doing. They are not the ones that are covered by court TV or later featured in Dateline generally, is that? No, Johnny Depp in the Amber Heard trials. No, no,

1:11 maybe unfortunately, it's been interesting, but no, so it's different. And I think people have a lot of questions and there's a lot of confusion too, because there aren't shows or long order that

1:23 generally talk about this kind of trial. You have so many expectations after watching something on TV and you think this is what it's gonna be like to do a trial or prepare for one and it is not like

1:33 that at all. These are years in the making. And I hope that, I mean, no one listening ever has to sit through any sort of trial for any reason, but I think if you find yourself in that situation,

1:46 I feel like I'll be excited, or at least like feel a little better to like have some background knowledge of terminology and what to do. And then I know before we start recording, also just some

1:56 best practices how in our daily.

2:10 work lives, we can just be conscious of protecting ourselves and the company should anything arise in the future. Well, and you're right to want to educate the audience and talk to the audience

2:11 about these things 'cause you're right, knowledge is power. And there are things that if you know from the beginning, you can avoid making mistakes really early on that you wouldn't have made if

2:22 you had known. So we were gonna walk through to that point kind of a few different scenarios that people would maybe find themselves in. Yeah, absolutely. And the energy trial context, I guess

2:32 you could say, but you or your company is sued. Let's do it, let's do it. Just as a general matter, your company is sued. And I usually will kind of cover more from year and employee in an

2:43 energy company or running an energy company perspective. And sometimes Ashley can kind of cover more of, and we can talk about that given the differences sometimes in the kind of cases we have. But

2:53 first thing off, whether you're running a company,

2:57 don't send emails about the lawsuit, right? So you get that's always the first thing. It's like, oh, no, I can't believe this happened. Then you type off an email to the team, either

3:08 potentially mischaracterizing something or saying something that is going to be twisted and held against you later. And you can't take it back once it's in writing and once it's in email, it's

3:17 forever. It almost seems like it's common sense, but it's just gonna say that. I was just gonna say that. Wanna update them. And I'm curious because not all companies, well, Jen, let's say old

3:30 age and energy companies are probably still using email. Some might use Slack, Microsoft Teams. Yeah, sales force. Same thing, yeah. And all that, I mean, like sales force. Still counts.

3:38 Still counts. I get to rank math. Yeah, I don't do it. Take up the phone. Yeah. I know nobody likes to use the phone anymore, but really just pick up the phone and have a phone call. And also,

3:47 if you leave a voicemail, that's also discoverable. So just call and say, hey, and then maybe some call me back. Call me back. Call me when you get this. but you don't have to put the subject

3:59 right around. And that's particularly important I think for managers and things because, you know, and even just as any employee working for a company, you know, there's privilege concerns,

4:08 right? So you're protected and your communications are protected with a lawyer and you're getting advice, but you know, the message to your like buddy down the hole, like, oh my God, you know,

4:20 and response to the lawsuit is not privileged So with that brings up a good point, which is get your attorneys on board ASAP. Yeah, first thing you do when you get served with a lawsuit is get your

4:33 attorney because that allows privilege to attach, meaning attorney client privilege and work product is going to prevent a lot of things from being discoverable, but you have to hire the attorney

4:44 for that to apply, right? So do that first also allow them to help you capture what it is you want to need to say to your employees if you're the manager speaking. to your sales force or your

4:57 engineers out in the field or whatever, make sure that you run that by the attorney first so that nothing can get you in trouble later. And then similarly, if you're reporting up to a board, same

5:07 thing, because privilege doesn't always attach to every single communication you have about a lawsuit. And so you need both of those things going in both directions to be exactly what you need them

5:18 to be in nothing extra. It seems like when it comes to law, trial aside, just having a lawyer, whether it's in-house counsel, or a service that you hire, I feel like it's always like better safe

5:29 than sorry. Oh yeah. You know? You feel like as we've grown, we've started sending more and more things to our lawyers just like, hey, can you put eyes on this? Yes. We just wanna make sure

5:39 we're protected in the future. That's a perfect example of one, an important point. And she said, you know, hiring counsel, that was so important. But even if you're a company, if you have

5:48 in-house counsel, if your company has been sued, And that isn't just because we're outside lawyers, to protect the company, but you really need, the in-house lawyer really should not be handling

6:00 the lawsuit, I mean, as a general matter. Even if you think it's gonna save you money, it can create a lot of issues. And generally, to your point, having independent eyes, having somebody

6:12 else looking at it. And another point to Ashley's point, I would say, is so you hire lawyers, say maybe, you know, a little down the road, you realize, maybe I made a mistake and I should have

6:22 hired somebody else, you can change that. True. Yeah, we come in all the time taking over KIT. No, it does, it happens all the time, it's either not a good fit or the prior counsel is in

6:34 handling the case you went to have the case handled that way. And so you can reach out and find somebody else that's a better fit for you or is gonna do things the way you want them done. It happens

6:45 all the time. Maybe it's also because the case itself changes, like you think this is a case that we're gonna settle

6:53 and it's nasty and you might be able to have a trial. The lawyer who was maybe gonna be the right lawyer you thought to get you to settlement or whatever isn't the right lawyer to try the case. So I

7:04 think having an open mind that you're not somehow forever married to that decision or even adding additional

7:14 lawyers who can add something else to the team. And we work with other firms all the time. And I enjoy though that actually the most is having co-counsels, so fun. And you have different skill

7:24 sets. Every attorney has different skill sets, just like everybody out in the workforce has different skill sets. And sometimes you need to rely on one for one set of issues and another for

7:32 different issues. No, that makes sense. So then, maybe I'm from, I guess, like, you received the lawsuit. Like one topic that comes up a lot and I think is confusing for people 'cause you

7:42 really never see any TV shows about this, but is the deposition. And if anybody you, know, maybe has been divorced at least have an idea of what that means. But you're asked to say you have to go

7:55 under oath. There's a court reporter there. And the lawyer for the other side gets to ask you questions. You have to give testimony that's basically the same as any testimony you would give in

8:05 court. Meaning like under penalty of perjury. So obviously it's serious. And it's really stressful when it relates to your job. Is this like step one? Like you get served a lawsuit, step one is

8:17 it? That's probably like step two or three Okay. But it's very early on in the process and it'll go for probably like a year because you don't get a full discovery. And so that includes depositions,

8:29 which is talking to people under oath, and it includes also gathering documents, sharing documents, exchanging documents, which we can talk about too. But the scariest at least from, you're

8:38 working at an energy company, running an energy company is, I mean, and we know this 'cause we have to talk to these guys all the time. They're like, oh, do I have to give a deposition? And

8:48 then if it's about my job, What if I say the wrong thing? Can I say I don't know? Like if they're asking me something about my job or about the company, like should I, like if I say I don't know,

8:58 am I gonna be in trouble in my job? Can you say I don't know? Oh yeah.

9:03 Absolutely, I don't know. Absolutely, I don't know. I don't know. No, I'm joking, but I mean, but truthfully, and this goes to our point on, you know, kind of the deposition process that

9:14 okay, you or your company, you have to give depositions in a lawsuit. You know, you as the individual entitled to be prepared and your lawyers should be preparing you and making you feel

9:24 comfortable. And I would always tell witnesses and people listening to the reverence, ask questions. Ask questions and specifically like, you can say you don't know, you're not there. And this

9:36 is my biggest tip to people who find themselves in the position of having to give a deposition either for their current employer or relating to their former employment and like, you know, kind of

9:46 energy trials we have. You aren't gonna win the case. for the company, so don't try. Yeah, I always feel good about it. It's kind of like stay in your lane. Not lose. Yeah, right. The job is

9:57 to not lose. Yeah. It's not to win. You're not gonna score any points, so you don't have to know everything. It is actually perfect. I don't know is a very appropriate question. If it wasn't

10:06 within your line of command, like within your scope of duty, something you did, a document that you are familiar with, you don't know, because the guessing is what they will, you know, a lot of

10:17 the time in the day, you're trying to get the person to over offer, talk about things that maybe they don't really know about. Right, and that's like, I feel like that's a people like slip up and

10:26 like offer little information they probably shouldn't be on. Yeah, because it's awkward just like in this pocket, I fall, all of a sudden we, if I was supposed to be talking to you guys and we

10:34 both just, step back and stop talking a little to you. Yeah, I feel like there's a nice talk. Like, aren't you gonna say something and I've asked you about your job? And you're like, I don't

10:43 know. I don't have been say, yeah, I think, right? I don't know, but I will tell you, right. And then if you say, I don't know, and I act incredulous about it, like, you don't know,

10:55 you've been at the company and then we sit back, you're gonna be like, well, maybe I do know, so yeah. You know what I mean? Is that tactics that you use? Like a lot of facial and, okay.

11:07 There's so much sightless, and you can use incredulousness. You can use staring at them, staring at them and not saying anything, acting like you're reading from a document when you're really not

11:18 so that they're nervous. This is so scary.

11:22 It makes me so uncomfortable. Are you sure you have never said, and then they're like, oh my god, they're reading from something, so I've definitely said that. But usually I don't play those

11:31 kind of games. Like if I am reading from a document, I'm reading from a document. But

11:37 you do want people to talk. I mean, is to get the witness to talking. You know everything that they could say at trial, and it doesn't mean it's all gonna be used. the lawyers will fight about

11:46 that later. The lawyer fights are really the most entertaining part of the deposition, so I would say, do you find yourself, at least no, if we're involved, I don't know, our kind of cases is

11:55 at least probably gonna maybe be entertaining. I will say, but it's gonna be tiring too. A deposition is very tiring. It's seven hours on the record and you take breaks. So it's actually more

12:05 like eight and a half, nine or 10, depending on how many breaks you take. Do witnesses come and go? No. Or they say they'll - It's one person in the chair for seven hours on the record. Oh my

12:16 gosh, I hope - How many? I know, I can't even imagine being asked. I mean, do you ask, you have seven hours' worth of questions or you just keep - It depends, but always. Like, so I've had,

12:31 I tend to use all my time, but I have had witnesses where it's like maybe four hours, but if it's like an expert on like a smaller issue, or if it's a third party or somebody who's like, not so

12:43 much involved. But typically, there is a lot to go through, at least in our cases, I mean, you're talking about, I mean, I don't remember how many, I don't know how many gigs or whatever of

12:53 documents in like a recent class action I had, but you're talking about, they can't even be putting on hard drives. I mean, massive amounts of data and stuff. So, just dealing with a lot of

13:03 information, and so it's really detail oriented, of course, so. And then I would say, in the deposition context, if you're in the company's position, say you're the VP of land, right? And

13:13 you're asked by the in-house lawyer, hey, we need to find somebody in land who can testify about these leases, or whatever. Then there's the decision. And I think that that's the decision you

13:25 talk about with your lawyers, but who should give that deposition, you know? You have to choose wisely. Yeah. Is it the land man who actually went out and negotiated the lease? Is that actually

13:35 the best person? Should it be the VP of land? And maybe speaking more for the land department as a whole, You know, is it really important to have, you know, that landman's testimony about his

13:47 personal discussions with the landowner, right? It depends. And that's always the lawyer answer. But being thoughtful about who is giving me deposition, because you want somebody that's going to

13:58 be able to answer questions correctly, not volunteer too much, not want to fill the silence with stuff that may or may not be relevant. And so you do have to usually interview a variety of people

14:10 before you settle on And okay, I think this one is the best person for the job, at least for this case. Unless there's a case where it's like you're like royalty cases that I do upstream cases, I

14:19 mean, there's, you know, the accountant at the company who handles, you know, the calculation and payment of royalties, right? That guy, like, he's that guy. Yeah, he's the only ever case,

14:30 like it becomes a joke, but that's the other thing with clients that is really interesting and helpful is like, you can really help your employees and and your colleagues and. Explain the

14:43 litigation. I had one time, and this guy, he's just fantastic, and is now a controller,

14:51 independent online gas producer. But he, I finally explained, I got him on the phone, and sometimes that's hard as an outside counsel to get one-on-one with just a business guy at the company,

15:02 but the company was like, yeah, no, talk to him. And I explained what we were trying to prove. So it was like historical payments. And what we were looking for, and he was like, oh, yeah, no,

15:10 but those wouldn't be there I didn't know that we were trying to prove payments from this period. I can find those, let me get that for you. And within like an hour, I had a spreadsheet proving,

15:21 the lesson being like, have faith in your life, give them some contacts around like, what do we need to show as a company? And like what? And it, because they can be so helpful. Like people in

15:33 different departments and different things in charge of different records. Or maybe it's just having more historical knowledge if it's a company or, you know, that's. around a long time. They've

15:44 gone through different systems, different management, right? So having people who know where, you know, older records are, records that are hard to find. So I don't know, but I thought I was

15:54 just so impressed by that. And I think it goes both ways, right? So it's important for the lawyers to ask good questions of the team that's involved in the lawsuit at the actual company so that we

16:05 get the information we need to be able to defend whoever it might be But at the same time, I think it's also important for the people at the company to ask questions too so that they understand from

16:17 the lawyers what matters and what's important. And you know, there's obviously a meeting in the middle where everybody gets to understand what matters where the documents are. Don't delete anything.

16:28 That's probably another thing we should talk about. I was going to ask about that. Like, I know companies have different, they use different tools to store data and files and things and is there a

16:41 timeframe in which there's a safe zone or do you really recommend like, don't ever delete anything like back everything up so that as far as it can go back, it goes back. So if you find yourself in

16:52 a situation where you need something from 10, 15 years ago, you've got it. So if you, the rule is, if you're anticipating being involved in a litigation, you need to stop or suspend any data

17:05 destruction protocols that you have. Otherwise. That relate to the litigation. Right I mean, you know, not your normal, you know, auto delete, whatever can go on as long, but you have to

17:17 segregate. And so a lot of times that's identifying custodians, but meaning the individuals and then the company that are gonna have relevant communications. And typically it's like freezing their

17:28 inboxes or et cetera. So there's ways to do it, you know, to where you're not like freezing everything, but it can be complicated and it needs an assessment on the front end and fast. Yeah. And

17:37 there are a bunch of companies with all the time that actually do this whole process to make sure that documents are collected in a way that we can use them in a litigation. You have to maintain the

17:48 metadata, meaning all the stuff that tells you when the file was created, when it was less modified. Who created it, who modified it. All of those things have to be maintained as well. And so

17:57 there's companies that specialize in this that make it as seamless as possible, as painless as possible. It's never painless, but at least they try and get it out of the way pretty quick so that

18:07 it's not something you're dealing with every day. Yeah, and then of course apart from the litigation, it's something what maybe preserved, there's different laws that apply, especially in oil and

18:15 gas and the kind of cases in my clients, different state laws sometimes about how long they have to maintain lease files. So even apart from litigation, there are certain obligations on at least

18:27 energy companies and those remitting royalties or who have land owners in maintaining certain files. So sometimes that's kind of even outside the litigation, worth knowing. And yeah, and I mean,

18:39 gathering documents is another big topic that we were going to talk about, and that kind of relates to, again, what Ashley was talking about, which is a lot of times referred to as a litigation

18:47 hold. So when you get sued, the company will send to the people that it were that were involved in the subject matter, whether it was a project contract, whatever, an email, typically, and it

19:00 includes a hold notice saying like, we believe there's going to be this litigation This is the subject matter and that you would have communications, do not, it has very specific instructions,

19:09 like, and they have to respond affirmatively that they will abide by. I mean, it's very serious

19:16 because there's some big time consequences if stuff gets deleted. I was about asked that. Can say, we can assume that whatever was going to be in that document was bad for you. Yeah. And so we

19:27 can instruct the jury to assume that. I would be so afraid I would accidentally I know, I know just like in my day to day like workflow accidentally deletes. I know. And the thing is that a lot of

19:37 companies, you know, that we represent, not all, but a lot of them, they have IT departments and it's like handled internally in an electronic fashion that, you know, that thankfully we don't

19:50 really have to worry too much about, but you know, the other way of getting documents that we haven't talked about is by subpoena. And so that's a word that people will hear a lot and maybe a

19:59 person who has the misfortune of receiving a subpoena, and a subpoena can ask for documents and sometimes the deposition, but typically, you know, if you're being subpoenaed, a lot of the times,

20:13 and this happens a lot, but energy companies will receive them. So your company is being subpoenaed, maybe for records, for use in somebody else's lawsuit. And so you can imagine that's kind of

20:25 scary, but you also sometimes think, and I've seen this and heard this and talking to clients of about actually their best practices, because,

20:36 one of the major oil and gas producers have, I mean, if they receive a third party subpoena outside counsel, not in house is handling it. If the company is being subpoenaed, somebody else's

20:46 dispute just because you can get maybe end up like getting yourself involved. Yeah. And also there's, there's other issues. So if that you get a subpoena, asking for all of these documents,

20:59 which sometimes in my cases, maybe, you know, you're getting a subpoena as a company, and they want all of your sales contracts for like certain volumes of either gas or NGLs or whatever, under

21:10 like NASB contracts, which are like standard, you know, of the sales contracts and upstream and else are more than gas, right? Those are confidential. Everybody knows that they typically always

21:20 contain confidentiality provisions, and they all contain, in my experience, sometimes different, like you have to give notice before you disclose the document. So the thing is, you want a lawyer

21:31 before you go produce documents in response you do have to worry about, you know, are you breaching obligations to other parties, to those, if it's contracts, like what about the other party to

21:45 that agreement? Are they okay with you giving this contract? Are you even allowed to? What happens if they're not? They just can't hand it over? I mean, we've, we have actually had to respond

21:57 to requests stating that we could not, that the agreement that they were requesting said, absolutely, I don't know, conditions do you disclose that, it would require court order, and typically,

22:08 a court will not order? Yeah, it depends on the language of the contract. Some of them are like, you have to give us at least 10 days notice, and if you don't hear from us, then you're free to

22:17 disclose it. Or we, the company that doesn't want to disclose has to file a motion for protection within the court, saying we don't want to produce it, or sometimes it's the other way around,

22:29 where the party requesting it has to file a motion to compel the doctor. be produced and that that point, once you have a court order, that usually is enough to get the document if you have to go

22:41 back. But you really do want an outside lawyer to that point. As you can imagine, make any evaluation of do you need to move to protect some of the documents that they're asking for? And you want

22:52 to generally be cooperative. Of course, you can get in trouble if you receive a subpoena and just ignore it And don't do that. You also have to respond pretty quickly. So you don't get your

23:02 subpoena and then you go, Okay, I'll think about that later. And then you put it off to the side and don't think about it for a month because then your deadlines have passed and then you can't

23:11 object. You can have sanctions assessed against you. So it's important that you actually, when you get a subpoena, you look at it and do something with it pretty quickly The other tip I guess I

23:24 would say is if you get a subpoena and it relates to say your former employment. Oh, that's a good call. the former, your former employer's lawyers, they're gonna be listed on the subpoena, call

23:38 them before you do really anything else. If it relates to the same subject matter as your current employment, I would also inform my current employer that I'd received a subpoena about my former

23:48 employment, but definitely call them before anything else because the other thing is depending on the agreements that you may have signed when you leave a company, you don't want to misstep and

23:59 breach those agreements with your former employer. And you also, if you can avoid getting involved, avoid getting involved. Yeah. So, and they may be able to just talk to you and ascertain you

24:11 don't have any helpful information and convince the other side that they don't really need to talk to you. Yeah, this is really helpful, I think. Like it sounds like a puzzle, like do this before

24:21 this and this and check this box and like, you don't really think about getting sued ever and like when this steps I feel like that's why, for me, like, anything. Around this is very overwhelming

24:34 because I'm like, there's so many things that you just as a Brand-in-person on an attorney don't know.

24:41 This is very very helpful. Do you have? Yeah. Do you have more tips? Well, I was just gonna probably lay out how the course of a lawsuit works for people that don't know so you can Yeah, know

24:51 that okay. This is the thing that happens immediately. This thing is two years down the line So lawsuits can vary in length. I would say mine are typically two to four years long And you know, it

25:01 really does depend. I've had one that's pending for seven years and I know that one span I feel like mine are I feel like mine are on average over five when you think about like the The average

25:13 person in any job role, especially I mean I'm Turning 33 you're turning 33. So like I think people are age You know millennials are job hopping so much like people rarely even stay in jobs longer

25:28 than Maybe two or three years and that you know on y'all's end, you have cases that are 5 to 7 years old. Yep, yeah, the witness may turn into a third party halfway through, which can have

25:40 disastrous consequences too. So if you think about that long time span of how long a lawsuit can be pending, so the first thing is you get served with that lawsuit, you need to immediately contact

25:51 your lawyer and start figuring things out, and you immediately need to stop any document destruction policies that you have in place Then shortly after that discovery begins, that's the depositions

26:03 and the document collection process that usually goes on for a long, long time. And then towards the end, you have something called summary judgment, which is basically you telling the court, a

26:12 jury doesn't need to hear this, it's so cut and dry, you can just decide it judged. And then if that doesn't work, you end up at trial. So that's kind of at a high level. And then how long is it

26:20 just? Actual trial lasts. Oh God, that's so long. It can be, if you're in a little misdemeanor court, which I don't ever do those, but if you're in a little misdemeanor court, that it's

26:30 usually like a half. day trial. My trials typically last a week or two weeks, but they can go up to a month or longer, just kind of deferral I've had as a week. Yeah, I've had two and a half

26:44 week trial. And then the jury took over two weeks. I can't imagine that I've never had a jury come back more than like a couple of hours. Every day I would come and I'd be like, this jury has been

26:58 deliberating this many more hours than the OJ sims injury. And everybody was like, thanks for that, Lauren. Great stat. That's helpful. Why would it like, how long would they get forever? They

27:10 just like, couldn't come to it. Yeah, someone is the judge legend. They, you know, send a note being like, is there an or the judge will kind of check in? Is there an issue? And they were,

27:21 and that was not the case. But anyway, it was it was really, it was really crazy. But then I've had somewhere they're out for maybe an hour. And you're like, Well, how did they.

27:30 Talk about anything interesting. So do they if they like two weeks long they're leaving and coming back I thought you couldn't do that like I thought you had to decide in that room. So like outside

27:40 Media whatever. Yeah, so you've still been instructed by the judge that you're not supposed to Google anything Oh, don't check social media. You're allowed to go and sleep in your own bed But for

27:51 the most part you shouldn't talk about the case Drive by if it's a site like for us. I was like an oil and gas lease or certain wells It you know like don't go see the site. You're not supposed to

28:01 do like your own investigation But I'm they I mean yeah, like how can you not yeah? They're not supposed to go in Google the lawyers And I'm like 100 positive they do because I'll come back and seem

28:11 to look at like I'm like, yeah

28:15 Yeah, so it's funny Do you feel like and I don't even know if you have an answer for this But I would think if I was a juror on some sort of energy trial just knowing how many people don't know

28:25 anything about energy I feel like it could be very overwhelming. That's our job though. We teach it and bite-sized ways, lots of fun graphics and things to make it both interesting and fun to learn

28:36 because that's the best thing you can do is teach a jury why you should win. So when they go back for two weeks into that jury room to deliberate, you have an advocate on your side. It's like, no,

28:48 remember, she said XYZ, don't you remember that card or that graphic? I'm just such a believer in the trial process and that a jury, if provided the information, like given both side stories will

28:60 generally come to the right conclusion, if they're allowed to see everything. And so, but having so much faith in that, and to me, I'm always like, we're gonna do the coloring book of this case.

29:13 And I like storytelling. I'm big on like kind of Johnny Cochrane, but like kind of rhyme things, like

29:19 colloquialisms, themes, you know what I mean? Remember when you say it. Repetition, right, and then looping, right? But you know your client's story and you're there to tell the story.

29:30 through maybe what are kind of boring looking documents or whatever, but the story itself isn't boring, right? And we're going to bring it to life. And if you can teach a jury, like they get to

29:39 go home to their family and they've learned something they didn't know

29:42 before, they like that. And they feel empowered by that. And I actually do think a lot of people are interested in welling gas. Oh, absolutely. Especially in the places where trying cases, you

29:51 know.

29:58 That's what it's an ask. The location really depends on that. Like West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Texas People, these are places like with oil and gas industries, and you'll see them sitting there

30:02 sometimes like. Well, 'cause a lot of people don't know kind of, you hear the words fracking or downhole tools or slick water and all of these things that are used to actually get things up out of

30:13 the ground and nobody knows what those are and you can actually paint a picture, physically show them the device, show them how it works and it's fascinating for most folks because you're never, if

30:24 you're not in the industry, you're know never. gonna

30:29 that is unless they teach it to you. And then sometimes they're really surprised too because a lot of at least in defending energy companies, a lot of times there's what we believe are crazy

30:36 allegations of fraud or different like conspiratorial type conduct. And it's a kind of eye opening I think for the jury sometimes 'cause a lot of times we run through companies audits, right? How

30:48 many times they're audited, all of the rules and regulations that apply to energy companies and every single thing that they're doing. Every governmental agency I mean, I think they're like, oh,

30:58 I mean, just from a common sense perspective, start some of the conspiracy or like, you know, thoughts just naturally kind of fade away. And I think that juries are actually surprised by that

31:11 when they leave. Yeah, that's really interesting. I actually wanna be a jury now. I want to too, let's try to get on the jury. I know, I get called for a jury duty. they end up like suddenly I

31:22 get an email or whatever, a day before and they're like, you don't have to come in tomorrow. I've never gotten - I've never gotten called either. And I think the one time I did, I had a baby. So

31:30 I like - Yeah. I had my out, but - Right. I did Team Court. Yeah, I did high school. Oh yeah. And I love that, but that's a little different, it was it is. I think I had called like three

31:39 times in like one summer. I was like, I must be at the top of their list. Like, it was, you know, nothing for 20 years and all of a sudden like three in a row. I'm like, can y'all leave me

31:48 alone? You know what would really be fun and if I ever get a chance to do is I'm gonna sign up to be like a mock juror. So in our cases, a lot of times we'll have like a mock trial of the case.

31:56 Can we come be paid? You pay people. We wanna pay people. We'll be

32:00 your mock. Yeah, yeah. To come in and they'll sit as a jury, they deliberate. A lot of times you'll maybe even have more than one jury. I have one where we had like four simultaneous juries and

32:08 they would break out into the rooms and you can let, oh, it's so funny. That is so cool. 'Cause they'll talk about you. Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, oh, it's, yeah. But it's funny. You learn

32:18 the most about your case though when you're doing a mock trial like that. that because you have your theme in your story and your documents that you want to show people and it may go over great, but

32:28 it may not. You're like, oh, like they're totally confused. Like they're totally confused. Like they missed that totally. Like I had, it was like related to oil and gas in Syria. And like one

32:38 jury just kept being like, where is the Syrian government? Why are they not here? And we're like, it was a question like we never, why would you be asking that? But it like raised a point in our

32:48 minds that maybe we needed to explain that it didn't like - That it didn't involve - To the real jury that like it doesn't involve them and they're not here. And if even if we wanted them here, like

32:58 good luck getting them here, just to eliminate any idea. So it kind of can show you some of the crazy things or ways things can go off track. And so you can know to stop them and keep them on the

33:08 right track. Yeah. Well, this kind of ties into like before we wrap up, I want to know some like some of your favorite stories. I know you can't divulge anything confidential, anything crazy

33:18 that's happened at trial or any good stories. My favorite was that we were waiting for a jury to come back and we were the plaintiff and we were asking for over100 million. And

33:32 I was the one that put on the damages expert to make sure that all the calculations, the jury believed them and that it was exactly what we were entitled to. And during deliberations, the jury sent

33:44 out a note and asked if they could give us more than what we had asked for.

33:49 They were like, Gundra, is it enough? We think that they deserve more. And the best part of these kind of stories, and I wasn't involved in this case, but the best part of it is, when the judge

33:58 gets a note from the jury, what he does is he calls everybody, 'cause you're waiting nervously and then he calls everybody and he's like, We have a note from the jury. So everybody's like, Ooh,

34:06 so all the lawyers run in. And then can you imagine? And the other side, they're like, They want to know if they can give them more money. On the other side, you're like, How do you not react?

34:15 Did you react? I would be like, I would scream, I think, in a good way. Well, you always tell people when you're at trial, you have to maintain a poker face the whole time, because the jury's

34:25 looking. So even if you get stabbed in the heart with some like bad document or testimony, do not make a face because that just telegraphs would really happen at least they didn't catch it. And

34:36 especially as a woman, I'm going to be honest, because a lot of the times we're the only woman presenting in the trial as an attorney. And it's just true that when you're different and there's just

34:44 more attention paid to you, and I'm particularly facial expressions, things like that. So yeah, they're really good at not having. No, I have no poker face. OK, I feel like I'm always the one

34:56 who, like, the jury was like, would look at me? Because I'd be like,

35:00 but I mean, but at times like that, like with the question or something. And I particularly, like, when the jury comes back, I always am telling everybody, I'm like, we make no reaction. Do

35:08 you not say anything? You just keep your head down, whatever, you know. And, you know, so there's definitely certain times when you don't, but I'm not the best poker face, she knows that, so

35:16 I can't blame her for her. My stories are so insane that it's hard to even know where to begin,

35:23 but including ones that may national news, because the guy that held us up at trial, but putting aside - Oh, I remember that. the guy that brought a gun to the trial. Yes, yeah, and so that was

35:34 probably the craziest, and I hope the craziest that I ever have But I will say arguing for the - that we believed the judge had a conflict, and this was in a different case, in a very rural area,

35:51 we had to go and argue to that judge why we believed he was conflicted out. And he was - he had spoken to the media and like, he hated us, like, hated us. And the tension in the room, it was

36:03 just I'll never forget how tense of a situation it was But one thing that I will always see now to me is so we were the defendants, lawyers. plane of lawyers in the cases were coming out. No judge,

36:17 you're so fair. There's no conflict, right? The plane of lawyers shows up with a tie covered in fake dollar bills.

36:26 Why? Which is like allegedly kind of like a sign of a bra. It's like known as like the money tie, meaning like bribery. And he shows up to the DQ hearing like, You're not conflicted judge with

36:39 this money tie on. And I was just like, How in a pro? It was just so insane. That's so weird And so crazy, like stuff like that. But yeah, the one where we waited like two and a half weeks for

36:48 the jury was one of the craziest. We were playing Uno. I mean, you run of out things to do. Yeah, so did you guys just show up every day? Every day, it would be

36:56 like an eight to five. Oh my God, how are we gonna kill all these hours today? Yeah, you're not even allowed to like show up comfortable. Wait, back to the judge. Who is like, who's over that?

37:04 Like who, how can you like, How can I get a hold on? Is it the judge itself? I feel like you're right, I can look at myself. Oh, I know, that was really what they made us do. And then it went

37:15 up to a judge on the higher court who decided it and with that judge, they agreed that he should be disqualified. I mean, in during the hearing, he compared

37:27 our team, so counsel and my client as a murderous orphan who has come in asking for leniency. And I was like, very confused as to who was the dad And how we killed them, but I mean, these were

37:38 the kinds of things where I'm just like, I mean, how do you keep your face? I mean I, think I was just like, 'cause I'm like, who's the dad? Like, I mean, who were our parents that we killed?

37:50 Him? I don't know. I don't know, it was so weird. But so funny things like that. And those are something about waiting that jury to come back for so long. And then the glory of that one was they

38:01 came back, They did have a number in the blank. but what a lot of the times people don't get is like their jury charge and the questions are really complicated, okay? There are questions in there

38:13 that will sometimes mean even if you are awarded money, you're not getting any money. Like statute of limitations. Like if you should have known something a certain amount of time before. So we

38:23 had questions on there that were like, When should they have known? Or like, Did they know by then? So those questions in my hands were shaking on the center. I was so excited 'cause I knew by

38:32 those answers the rest didn't matter. 'Cause they should have known That means their claim was barred, meaning they get zero. And so then they get to the number of blanks though, and she still

38:41 reads the answer of how much money it was. Well, the other side, the plaintiffs are freaking out. They're not lawyers. They don't understand they're not getting anything. And you can see their

38:50 lawyers are like, They're like, sit down. Yeah. So anyway, so it was a win, but man, I'm a painful one of waiting two and a half weeks. Yeah. Anyway, but we love talking to you all. Yeah.

39:01 Yeah,

39:03 thank you. Let's wrap up with two important questions Number one. What do you guys think is the most common? We usually ask like the most common misconception energy, but I would say for this

39:13 podcast, the most common misconception as it relates to like energy law.

39:19 Ooh,

39:22 a common misconception from, I guess who's point of view. I will sometimes say from, you know, the energy companies point of view, the idea that you can just settle litigation instead of having

39:39 to try cases, and that is maybe a sustainable strategy because in my experience, it does not work out that way. I was gonna say almost the same thing, which is you may have to take a certain

39:54 position or produce certain information in a case, not for that case, but because it could have long-standing consequences for other cases for years to come. we have to turn off the water tap now,

40:09 because otherwise we're gonna have a flood of things later. And so it's really important to figure out, okay, we're about to get hit with 15 of these lawsuits. What do I need to do now in the

40:19 first one to make the next 14 more manageable or cut them off? And their copycats, I mean, like planas. They do, they file certain lawsuits, wait and see how they go. And then, you know, if

40:31 they do generally work together, the planas were, and not that we aren't on the planas side, of cases too, but at least in upstream litigation against energy companies, those guys typically talk,

40:41 they work together, they know, you know, they're hearing what different ex, what arguments are working and, and that's true in the climate litigation too. Yeah, I would. You know, kind of

40:51 changing arguments, trying to see what's gonna work. And I would say the other thing is just thinking, I'm not gonna tell my lawyers about thing X, because it shouldn't really matter and I don't

41:05 want to have to talk about it. And it inevitably will become the focus of the trial. Yeah. And it's like, I can't help you avoid the landmine if I don't know it's there. So you have got to tell

41:17 me where your lawyers, everything is confidential. Please, please just be 100 open and honest because we can oftentimes make a plan that will eventually avoid the issue you're worried about. But I

41:30 guarantee you, if we don't know about it, it is nearly impossible to avoid it. All right, last question. Why should we care that listeners, the general energy professional population, why

41:41 should we care about energy law?

41:44 It affects everything you do every day. I mean, there's just no getting around it, whether it's regulations or whether it's you're getting sued or weather. Oh yeah, we need to talk to regulations.

41:54 Yeah, it affects everything you do, every time. And I think I would say that given where we're at,

42:02 near, I guess, the end of what you could say, the shell revolution, you know, and I think a lot of transition and the energy industry, but the changing so social, economic, political pressure

42:12 for sure is making it's more costly, right? To do business and to make a profit, you know, for your shareholders and to maintain a robust business for your employees. And the environment, but I

42:29 will say that not keeping tabs on litigation and fighting when you need to fight to stop the bleeding will, and I have seen it, will bankrupt your company. Jeez. In combination with everything

42:42 else. If you

42:44 don't, and if you are in a certain state or region and you start paying in your deep pockets, they will try to lead you dry. Yeah, they will. Yeah, it'll be death by a thousand cuts, but which

42:57 is still ultimately results in the, the death of the company. Yeah. Well, thank you guys so much for joining us. Thank you. I know. This is fun. So we'll have to come back and we'll do another

43:07 topic. I love that. Yeah, it's fun. And we also, we do an event called Energy Tech Night. It's for Energy Tech startups. We actually are doing one in Fort Worth this year. So we'll make sure

43:18 to send you guys the info so you guys can come hang out. Oh, it's so fun. Thank y'all so much. Thanks. Thanks for coming. Bye y'all.